What Don said....
| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Fretboard question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3516 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | WalterK [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hello Friends, I have a question that I've been meaning to ask for a long time. When I install frets on a fingerboard unmounted on the neck I get this monster of a bowing effect. It's usually quite severe, especially that part of the fingerboard which is over the body. When I glue the fingerboard it compresses ok except the overhang portion. This is putting a lot of pressure on the neck for shure. It also leaves me with the bowed overhang to deal with. I have stopped arching the upper portion of the body to help me get the neck mounted to the body. Question: What can I do to minimize the bowing of the fretboard? I'm using the right size frets and the fretboard slots are the correct width and depth. It really gets interesting when you try and set the guitar action and neck set. Please advise...I appreciate your help. Thanks Walter |
|
| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Don't fret the neck until it's glued down. Then you can level the whole fretboard and this won't ever haunt you again. |
|
| Author: | Brock Poling [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
What Don said....
|
|
| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Indeed what Don said. I used to do my frets as you are doing an it caused nothing but problems in the fb extension area. You'll definately want to have the board on your neck so that you can flatten the board in reference to the guitar vs a flat table. |
|
| Author: | tippie53 [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I do it both ways. The arch is a natural thing that happens as you are spreading the wood by the fret tangs. If you use the press or hammer method it is there. If you do it when on the top the stresses are still there just not a prone to showing. I am starting to glue in frets as it is a non stress way. I like the top to be free of the outside stresses and let the bridge to the work. I havn't decided yet if one way is better than another. john hall blues creek guitars |
|
| Author: | John Cavanaugh [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=tippie53] I am starting to glue in frets as it is a non stress way. ... [/QUOTE] Some time ago, I read (sorry, I don't remember where) that one shouldn't glue frets in because the instrument may need new frets in the future. Do you use a glue that allows for refretting? I'm not trying to find fault here. I realize that every step in guitar construction can be done in many ways. I'm just a newbie wondering about conflicting advice. |
|
| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
On sturburn frets I will wick thin CA. As with most any glue, when you heat it it will let loose. It is easer to clear the slots if there is no glue but after having done a bunch!! of refret jobs. I don't find glue to be a big issue. At least not as big in my eyes as Ebony chip away.  Now there is an agravation
|
|
| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
as has been pointed out heat will release the glue used to hold frets. and it is basic good practise to use heat whenever removing any fret. it softens the wood and helps the fret come out with minimal damage to the board. |
|
| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
some further thoughts; i don't know for sure where the practise evolved but fretting before the neck/board is on the body makes eminent good sense when you are building electrics with unheeled bolt on necks where the fb end and the neck end are the same, a la fender and their clones. very simple, foolproof even, or it should be. somewhere along the line though some bright spark must have decided that what that what works for them should work for acoustic builders to. wonder they didn't decide to push them in sideways like fender also. but since fender themselves gave up on that idea maybe they didn't think that was such a good one. as was stated above, when ever you fret, if you press or hammer the frets are going to generate a compression effect on the board. that is that the fret tang is going to exert lateral force parallel to the long axis of the board. indeed this compression effect is used to adjust the relief of old necks =without adjustable truss rods. but if the board is unsupported it will cause the board to bend. this bend will straighten when the board is clamped/glued down, that is if your neck angle is perfect. but if your neck angle/top relatioship is not perfect, you will have a board with a hump or dip in it at the body join. now you may be able to adjust your neck to remove the hump or dip or you may have only the dressing of the frets as a way to remove it. i don't find this a satisfactory route to take. thus it seems a simple choice to me. but i'm not in camp with john though about gluing frets in. whilst i have done it when there was no other option on repairs, i have never been a fan since don teter first published his ideas back in the 70's, or at least that was when i first read about them. |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi John Just for clarity Tipee is refering to the practice of making the fret slot wider than the tang and literally sticking the frets in. The advantage of this approach is you don't get any back bow, On a refret providing the right type of glue is used you can simply heat them out, you would heat them anyway even if just driven in. Some people like to dress a little glue into the slot when driving the frets, this has the advantage of making the frets mor resistant to popping up if the guitar is subjected to humidity changes. Again they can be released via the heat applied during a refret. Hope this is of some help. |
|
| Author: | tippie53 [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
RussellR is on the money. I actually learned this trick from Dave nichols. At first I was a little aprehensive but after a few I find it makes for a better looking fret job especially when there is alot of inlay on the board and bound. I use 5 minute epoxy and I have a cawl to match the fingerboard radius. I don't have a problem with the loose ends often attributed to bound boards and if I need to pull a fret a few minutes with a soldering iron frees them and I can often reuse the same fret. Either method is fine actually it depends on the skill level and experince. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat and at least 5 ways to fry one |
|
| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
as i said, the first i read of the glue in method was don teter's publication of it back in the seventies. it is not new, but rather old. he used epoxy. |
|
| Author: | L. Presnall [ Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Tippie, Many ways to skin a cat indeed, I'm still looking for one where the cat thinks it's a good idea! 
|
|
| Author: | CarltonM [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
As I understand it, the original Teeter method used a VERY wide slot, with LOTS of epoxy, and was used for every fret. Many felt that it adversly affected the instrument's tone--not necessarily its future repairability, because epoxy releases with heat without much more effort than PVA glue, especially in small applications like fret slots. For the 'board over the top, some advice I've read says to cut your slot just a little wider--say, a couple thou' more than usual--so the barb still engages a bit, but doesn't force a backbow. Something which would allow you to finger press the fret in just about all the way. This way you could use any kind of premium glue, which stiffens the wood around the barb; or, if you're nervous, a light application of epoxy should do the job. As always, tedious experimentation will save you time later. |
|
| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
the teter method relied on the slot matching the barb width as the barbs were all there was to locate the fret in position. if the slot were any wider the fret could swim in the slot, be cocked in the slot, or long or short in the slot, in any event producing non-scale tones. that is to say it would be permanently out of tune. the tone aspects were what put me off. as far as repairability goes, the process could be performed repeatedly as it did no subsequent damage to the slots. |
|
| Author: | Sylvan [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Until this past year and for the last 25 years or so, I have used the basic Teeter method of gluing the frets in with epoxy. I still cannot understand why anyone wants all of that built in compression on the fretboard. Especially when it is really important that the fretboard remain stable (and flat) over the guitar's lifetime. The built in compression has to have some effect over time and maybe that is why you see instruments with necks all over the place which certainly effects the playability of the instrument. But each to his own way. I just do not understand the rationale. As far as Teeter's method, at least the way I always did it, was to cut the fret slots at 35 thousandths which was just about perfect for a hand press fit of the fret into the slot. In 25 years of doing it that way I never had a problem with a neck or a re-fret. The only reason I am not doing it that way now is I have developed a semi-hemispherical way of fretting that is far superior to either method (in my opinion). Otherwise I would still be using Don Teeter's method! |
|
| Author: | arvey [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I fret the board before glueing it on and never have to level the frets after the guitar is together. Everything lines up perfect and it gives just enough back bow that when strung up the relief is the way I like it. Using a 24' radius on the top matches the neck angle so there isn't a bump. The one time I freted after I ended up with a little too much backbow. It works for me. |
|
| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sylvan, could you tell us about your semi hemispherical method ? KiwiCraig |
|
| Author: | Sylvan [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
All I can tell you is that it took me about a year to develop the process. For now, it is going to remain proprietary. If I decide to ultimately make it public it will be done on this forum. |
|
| Author: | Pwoolson [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Craig, there was article written up in an AL a few issues ago. The author used a method of filing off all of the tangs so that he could install, remove (repeat many times) without damaging the board. Too much work for me. |
|
| Author: | Bobc [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
A couple of years ago I ordered a slotted and inlayed fretboard. It was the Martin Snowflake pattern. The place I ordered it from informed me that they CNC the slots wider .035 so that the frets would be a press fit just as Sylvan described above. I fretted and glued the frets and I have to say it was the easiest best fret job I ever did. No wedging of the fingerboard, stayed perfectly flat. No problems yet. |
|
| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Thanks Paul for that info. So they just glue on the tangless fret?. Geez, I'll have to think about that one! Seems a bit "new wave", but I suppose everything does initially. I think if I were to use that method . or even epoxy the tangs in, it would be something I wouldn't want to go shouting about. I just don't think it's something that people would accept without thinking it's a bit bodgy.Please take no offence Sylvan , john Hall and others. Just my initial knee jerk reaction. It does solve the problem of bow back and I know the epoxy method isn't a brand new idea.Consumer acceptance is probably the thing.Skeptical,is the word I think I'm looking for I don't enjoy the back bow that's for sure! I find it alters my previously worked out ,and set, neck angle.Even with a two way adjustable truss rod. I have the ultimate solution though folk's!!!.........."GO FRETLESS"!!!!! 
|
|
| Author: | Sylvan [ Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I don't know where the idea came from, but the epoxy fret jobs I used to do (and Teeter reccomended) are with standard fret wire. Tangs and all. The tangs are what makes the wire a press fit at .035. Tangless would defeat the entire idea. Also I would say to you that once the frets are installed on a bound fretboard no one could ever tell the difference between that kind of fret job and banging the frets in, except there will be no stress on the fretboard at all. Additionally when it comes time to re-fret a little heat from a soldering iron remves the frets cleanly without pulling out hunks of the fretboard. Clean the slots with a Dremel and refret with the exact same wire! I have never had a complaint about my fret jobs on my guitars. I just do not see a downside but, as I have said before, each to his own! |
|
| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sorry Craig, I didn't mean tangless, I meant that he grinds off the barbs from the tangs to that it slips in and out. |
|
| Author: | Glen H [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Walter, One thing that I found that helped take out the backbow when I used to install frets on the board before attached to the neck (as you are doing) was to clamp the fretted board flat to a table top overnight. I "found" this on Kathy M's great website. It did help with the backbow. |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|